My interview with Hollywood director/actor Josh Margolin about his scam-revenge film 'Thelma'
Now, for something fun
Reading about scams isn't necessarily fun, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you writing about them isn't exactly a barrel of laughs. I've done a few pretty heavy stories lately, so I'm delighted to share something much lighter -- dare I say, cathartic -- with you this week.
Hollywood actor and director Josh Margolin has a very wonderful relationship with his grandmother, Thelma. His 104-year-old grandmother, Thelma. So when she was targeted by a grandparent scam, he did what any moviemaker would do -- he made a film about it. We discuss it in this week's episode of The Perfect Scam. In real life, Thelma stopped just short of sending money to the criminals. In the movie, she drops an envelope full of cash into a mailbox...immediately regrets it...but then makes the criminals pay.
Thelma is played by June Squibb -- last summer, there was talk of Squibb being the oldest Oscar nominee for her amazing work in the film -- she was 94 then, and for the record, Thelma was her *first* starring role. Yes, older folks can do very, very important work.
"Show me don't tell me" is the oldest advice in storytelling, and the film does a great job of showing viewers how easy it is to slip into negative language that blames victims, and discourages them from coming forward. At one point, Thelma's family talks about her in another room, but she can hear them all discuss a plan to take her freedom away because of the scam.
But most of the film involves Thelma's zany quest to hunt down the criminal and get her money back. Anyone who's ever been a crime victim will cheer on Thelma and her old friend as they ride his souped-up, hot-rod-esque scooter around town hunting for the bad guy. And when they find him....well, you'll just have to watch the film.
Along the way, the sweet relationship between Thelma and her fictional grandson will warm your heart, and make you wonder why there aren't more grandma-grandson relationship movies.
Josh was a delight to interview, and not just because he said he was a fan of The Perfect Scam. We discuss what he learned about scams making the film, why he cares more than ever about the growing scam problem in the U.S., and the gentle art of growing old. I hope you'll listen. You'll get a healthy dose of Thelma's hard-earned wisdom -- that's 104 years worth of wisdom, remember.
But if podcasts aren't your thing, below you can find a partial transcript.
Here is a link to the IMDB Thelma page, and a link to the Rotten Tomatoes Thelma page.
You can watch Thelma on many streaming services, including Hulu, Disney+ and Amazon Prime.
-----------------Partial transcript-------
[00:14:18] Josh Margolin: Ooh, it really is. It's horrible, because it's so easy to just make a phone--, it feels like the ability to enter somebody's life has become so easy, especially for people who aren't guarded, or aren't armed with the tools to know what's happening initially. And I'm sure we're all going to be that soon enough because everything is moving so quickly, but it just is really, something about the ease with which you can just enter someone's life and then change it so profoundly is upsetting.
[00:14:42] Bob: Since we've gone to that dark place, that's something I'm really excited to ask you about because you, another interview I read where you said basically there could have been another script that ended up in that dark place, but instead, you made this empowering movie. Can you talk about that?
[00:14:57] Josh Margolin: Yeah. I think for me the scam, what the scam really did at least was, as I was mentioning in my life is that it pricked up this awareness I think of her fragility and an inevitable decline that we all have to go through as humans. But I think it's something that I had been afraid to face with her, because she had always been so steady, even through illnesses and the rest. Somehow, I don't know if it was just the age I was at or my level of awareness, or her brave face, or however that played out, but I just had always found her unflappable and I think what the scam did is highlight the way in which she's human. And to me, what I ended up wanting to do was finding a way to celebrate the person she is, her grit and her spirit and her tenacity and these things I really admired in her. And, and also reckon with the questions of her autonomy and aging and death and loss and all those things that were on my mind as well. So to me, maybe it is the love of kind of action movies or whatever that might be that, that affects them for the genre of kind of somebody going and getting what's theirs, I just felt like I wanted her, I wanted to use this as a way to explore those things, but I also wanted the character to have some catharsis. Because I knew that in life also that is so rare with this particular event that so now, I'm marrying it to some of those genre elements and then exploring it through that lens. It just felt like it wouldn't, I don't know, it felt like it, it was something I wanted her to be able to pull off, and I wanted the movie to beat the odds in that way and be a place where maybe people who have experienced stuff like this can reckon with those themes and the kind of heavier stuff that does come up when someone's faced with this, but also find some catharsis in this character beating the odds and finding a way to get it back while also realizing she has to, she can't actually totally do it on her own either, and that balance was important to me too in, in that character having to realize some limitation while also still bucking the odds.
[00:16:55] Bob: Having that moment. Did, no one who has been a victim of a criminal like this isn't cheering, screaming, watching her actually chase down her criminal, not that we want to encourage people to chase after criminals, we don't do that here.
[00:17:08] Josh Margolin: Of course, yes. Disclaimer.
[00:17:09] Bob: But we do want to encourage people to have moments of where they, they bridge to the future out of this, where they reclaim some power somehow. Some of that, we hope, is appearing on podcasts like this where they talk about their story and, and report the crime. And many people end up becoming victim advocates in one way or another after an experience like this. So we're all about happy endings here.
[00:17:31] Josh Margolin: That's amazing. No, that's such, it's so valuable, just people being able to have a place where they can come and talk about it. Because I do, yeah, in some ways it almost might be easier to come to you than to your own family I could imagine.
[00:17:41] Bob: Ultimately it is. I have those conversations a lot and then sometimes we try to intercede. But AARP does, does a great job of it. There's a phone number that you can call if you're a victim, and they, they have people to just listen, which is a phenomenal service. It's free.
[00:17:53] Josh Margolin: That's a great resource, yeah.
[00:17:54] Bob: It's not just for older people, yeah.
[00:17:56] Josh Margolin: That's amazing.
[00:17:56] Bob: Can you talk about the reception for the movie? What did you feel, and I'm wondering in particular if you heard from other victims of scams?
[00:18:03] Josh Margolin: That was probably the craziest part was that I feel like almost every screening we did, almost every event we did, someone, if not multiple people would come up saying that they had this experience, or their parent had this experience, their grandparent. So that I think that's what really struck me is I knew that this was a relatively widespread phenomenon or at least intellectually I knew that, but I don't think I really accounted for how many people were touched by that, almost that exact event. Like really beat for beat. Other scams as well, but also just even specifically that scam, the grand--, grandchild with the broken nose who got in a car, like it, it was really shocking to me how many people had a very similar story. And that was really...
[00:18:45] Bob: And even right down to the broken nose, right?
[00:18:46] Josh Margolin: Yeah, exactly, down to just a way to justify the fact that the voice sounds a little different. All of those details were ironed out and it seemed like it really was just like a playbook that was run and run again and again and so it was really interesting to get to talk to people who had similar experiences and hear the spectrum of people who hadn't sent the money, who had sent the money, who had sent a little bit, or who had sent a lot, and it definitely made me at least feel, feel good to give them this piece of hopefully cathartic entertainment and also someone to talk to about it, because it was definitely a topic of conversation that came up a lot, and that felt kind of bonding to be able to be like, oh yeah, this happened to me, or this happened to a loved one of mine, and just being able to have those conversations more easily and to acknowledge the prevalence of this felt good and felt kind of connective, especially because I do really think it's going to, as AI and all these things rapidly become more and more insidious, it feels like the, a thing that once felt really like it only could prey on the most vulnerable, so I think just the practice of getting to talk to people about it is so wonderful, and was a part of that release in that tour that I didn't really, I didn't anticipate to the extent that it happened.
[00:28:34] Bob: Okay, what do you want our listeners to take away from the movie and from what you learned making the movie?
[00:28:40] Josh Margolin: I hope people who've gone through things like this take away some feeling of catharsis and some reminder of perhaps the spirit of the strength of the people who have gone through it, and that this event is not necessarily a, they can feel like a defining one and maybe in some cases it's more so or less, but I do think that, I hope there's some joy at least in the catharsis of watching somebody buck the odds there a little bit. And on top of that I hope it makes people think a little bit about how they view the people in their lives who have gone through things like that, and how it's very easy also to quickly want to do the thing that in your mind it makes them the safest or protects them as, as swiftly and as, as fully as possible. Not always with the consideration of what, you know, their needs are and what their, what moment in life they're in. At least for me I know that was an impulse... okay, now that this has happened, oh God, like we just, how do we prevent this from happening and how do we do that at any cost. And I think that is a tempting impulse to just be like, how do I protect this person no matter what after something like that happens. But I do think there is some, there's, it's a fine line and that there is some acceptance to be found, hopefully, in the idea that you can't fully protect somebody from life. I also hope it will make people think about maybe how they react when these things happen to people. Because I know for me, there was an impulse to just protect at all costs and be like, whatever we have to do to make sure something like this doesn't happen, or there's no risk of this, but I think there's sadly always some risk and I think finding that balance and finding that acceptance, and finding that, that, I think it's a delicate balance between doing what you can to care for somebody, and also like letting their, letting them still be who they are and giving them enough autonomy to be that, until it really becomes a, a matter of safety and whatnot. But I hope people think on that balance and maybe also think on their own reactions to stuff like this, because I know it's made me think a lot about that because I think I bring a lot of my own... the Daniel character is so torn between kind of his own anxiety about what will keep his grandma safe and also realizing that there are limits to the things he had do to protect her.
[00:30:47] Bob: It's such a hard balance. When, you know if a child falls down, skins their knee, you want them to be safe. But you can't put them in bubble wrap.
[00:30:53] Josh Margolin: Exactly. It feels like an impossible balance but one that I know, even striving for, feels admirable.
[00:30:59] Bob: I also feel like for heaven's sake, it's okay to make mistakes. Just because they're an older person doesn't mean a mistake should end your life somehow.
[00:31:06] Josh Margolin: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great way of putting it, 'cause I think that is the, that's probably what it feels like to a lot of people who go through it, and then also probably is reinforced by the, the judgment or the fear that is then perceived as judgment that a family can have.
[00:31:19] Bob: We're almost out of time, but I have to ask you this question. June was amazing, and it must have been amazing to try to bring your grandmother to life through another person. What was that like?
[00:31:28] Josh Margolin: It was amazing. It was really surreal and strange, but also really fantastic. I think if it, I don't know who it would have been if it wasn't her. I'd always wanted it to be June. I always had my heart set on June. It was hard enough in my mind to imagine somebody playing her and then June was really the only person that I got excited about, and I was like, wow, she would be incredible. There, there's something inherently similar about them. I think they're both like very independent and tough, but funny and thoughtful and just there's, there's some mix of qualities there that just felt really right. And I thank God June said yes and came onboard, and she was the first party to do, so she was a part of the movie in its DNA from pretty early on. And it was amazing. I, I never wanted her to feel like she had to do like an impression of my grandma or anything, I just wanted her to find her own version of that character and what was so lovely was, I think that's what drew her to it and it wasn't a, it was a, a huge leap from who she is. And that combined with her being just an amazing actor was really special to watch, and I just felt very lucky to have her and really don't know how the movie would have worked without her. She's the heart and soul of it, and very much the, yeah, the avatar that I, the avatar for the real Thelma that I don't know that anyone else could have, could have been.
[00:32:46] Bob: Josh, thank you so much for speaking with The Perfect Scam.
[00:32:49] Josh Margolin: Thank you so much. This has been great. I'm so happy to be talking to you and I'm a fan of the podcast, and I really appreciate you, you having me on and watching the movie and, and getting the chance to talk about all this.